Just wanted to elaborate a tiny bit more on Sal’s marriage, the game in question and some further thoughts before returning to our scheduled final post on old ladies.
Your comments have have certainly enriched me and made me realize where I was agreed upon, and where I was naïvely wrong. For example, I never considered the matter of consent. Marriage is in fact a ceremony that ultimately involves two people, not one. Thoroughly conditioned by galgames to see these female characters as completely unconditional in their love, I hadn’t even considered the importance of their consent in the ceremony. Having hardly been to or known the details of many marriage ceremonies in my short life, this can only be blamed on my naïveté and inexperience.
Thus, on the topic of consent, I’ve looked further into the game, honestly, to discover a few shocking things.
One thing I do want to add though is that I commend Love Plus because their heroines aren’t defined by their Bust/Waist/Hip. If there ever were an argument of it, that would be a very primary instance of objectification of women in galgames. B/W/H is very personal information; likewise, why aren’t measurements listed for the male characters? No, it’s never so.
This isn’t an unfair argument, but it’s pointless, because the aim of the galgame is no secret: alleviation of the male demographic’s thirst for romance. As such, it’s easily understandable how the objects of feminine beauty would be immediately laid bare. That is exactly why I commend Love Plus; not completely platonic, but it’s emphasizing that the relationship is not completely sexual. There are other factors to a successful relationship; the happiness of your partner, complimenting personalities, ability to compromise for one another, etcetera, that other galgames don’t much explore. Before I say anything, I have to give Love Plus that much.
On that accord, it really is criminal of me to have not researched about Love Plus more, which would’ve allowed me to further understand this highly controversial marriage. It is in fact part of a long running series of Tokimeki Memorial (in short, TokiMemo) dating sim games spanning from the Famicom to arcades and PCs, known for being non-linear and innovative. From there, Love Plus further distinguishes itself by being stunningly interactive; fully taking advantage of the NDS’ capabilities. Instead of a conclusion where a character confesses in other TokiMemo games, Love Plus doesn’t actually have an ending – in the second half, the character with the highest affection for the player confesses, and thus begins an excellently simulated dating experience.
Players are able to engage in ‘physical contact’ with the character by, for example, touching her forehead with the stylus. There is voice recognition capabilities, where the player can ask the heroine a question and receive an answer. In fact, apparently there are over 5,000 scripts and 25,000 voice expressions. Just for the sake of comparison, seeing as how the average number of words a college graduate knows hovers around 20,000-38,000, this is a fairly incredible amount of expressions. One can only wonder how long the seiyuu spent in the recording studio.
Most uncanny though would be the heroines’ ability to change their behavior as they slowly learn about the player’s preferences. For example, they can be taught to vocally call the player by a whole range of terms, from an extensive list of recorded names and nicknames to even ‘goshuujin-sama’. The game uses a real time clock, so the player can email/call the heroine during the day, at times receiving instantaneous replies and at times delayed ones, perfectly simulating a life of her own. And yes, this would make even nighttime events possible. Believe it or not, there’s actually events where you study with her, and then further along the line take a test with questions posed by actual people with educative backgrounds. That is an amazing level of detail.
Seeing everything the game has to offer is sung to be impossible. Allegedly, Konami says that to see all the events of even one character, not even a year will suffice. A high statement, seeing as how the average galgame can be completed within a month of sporadic playing.
Is this all true? have we got at our hands the perfect simulated female AI? I don’t know, I’ve never played, don’t take my word for it. But the trailer seems pretty true to its word, and we have to take into account the man who was so swayed by this programming that he chose to marry one of the characters. How far really then is this to our envisioned future where there will exist virtual lovers, holograms of people capable of displaying emotion, conversing with you, learning about your preferences, and even, physical contact – It’s truly astounding how everything I just listed can be done in some form in Love Plus. It’s almost as if Anegasaki Nene did give her consent.
Normally I might comment ‘let’s not allow our imaginations to wander’, but in this case it’s very related to the topic at hand. It’s interesting how we’ve reached such an advanced level of technology, which essentially is supposed to mean tools designed to aid mankind, that it is actually breaking humanity down – Albeit in very interesting ways, too. It may seem cruel to call a rise of virtual lovers reducing humanity’s population ‘interesting’ – I’m not trying to be – but one cannot deny that it’s an intriguing phenomenon to study. It gets one thinking, what other currently unknown to us phenomena will the constant advance of technology bring? But really, that would be getting off topic.
Truly, how far away are we from the day where marriage with a robot generates worldwide debate? As I think of what Love Plus is proof of, perhaps not very.
Ningyo
Relayed from Konami here.
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December 15th, 2009 at 7:02 am
LOL one more point, what is the point of marrying a video game char any ways…..if everything is simulated by someone else.
And besides, if this can happen then the logic of “if you like hot dogs so much, why don’t you marry it?” would make sense.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Love Plus is a descendant of Tokimeki Memorial? That’s insane. I had no idea!
I think we’re still quite far away from the point where human-AI relations become a serious topic. As hard as it is to see from inside the fandom, the Nene marriage didn’t make too many waves outside of Japan. More of a “point and laugh for a bit” reaction than anything.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Wow… I’ve been reading so far and the topic itself just raises tons of eyebrows and questions.
I honestly don’t know.
I mean, there’s no question the Sal dude knows he’s in love, genuine love. There’s no contesting the fact that love does manifest itself in many forms, some being unconventional. But this man may have just transgressed all boundaries by loving something so abstract as a videogame character.
In my opinion, nothing beats actual human interaction. As advanced as today’s computers are, I doubt there are any computers capable of honestly becoming human. H-U-M-A-N, human not as in just responding to prompts or programmed AI, but human as in to love; to comprehend, learn and analyze; to feel sheer emotion.
All I’m left wondering about is how long Sal dude will survive with his one-sided love. There’s no doubt what he feels can be love but in the long term, wouldn’t he be bringing about his own downfall in the end? One can only love so much, we are only human. The love is there but how deep is that love, I just question.
LOLsies, what happens when he grows old and Nene woman stays young… Speaking of, what happens if the current technology becomes obsolete?
Major dilemma. hehe.
Ciaos timbo. Take care. Loves. xD
December 15th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
I had no idea the depth of this game. I had just assumed it was more on the level of your average visual novel, or even something like Illusion games. It’s certainly quite amazing.
Now I really want to try it.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:27 am
I love discussion comments. They actually have more body than the actual post.
@mat
But then, you’ll have to consider what are the factors that causes one to consider marrying another. Sexual attraction, desire for companionship, for family, to spend the rest of one’s time with someone one believe can support oneself – the fact that Anegasaki Nene is man made doesn’t change how she possesses these qualities for Sal. Liking hotdogs is different – it’s different emotions that elicit different actions.
Though, in your defense, there does exist object sexualism.
@2DT
Yes, I was completely in the dark about that as well. I still wonder if I even did my research right.
That would depend on one’s definition of ‘not quite’. It’s true that we aren’t there yet, but if we’re not close we’re at least closer than ever. Isn’t Sal’s marriage a real example already? The first instance means it’s not purely hypothetical anymore. Supercomputers are already capable of simulating cat brains, with the question now being ‘If the human brain is data being passed from neuron to neuron at its basic level and we can simulate that in a computer, shouldn’t a conscious mind start to emerge?’
Though my social scope is horribly limited, I’m inclined to believe ripples were made at other places. I can honestly say the people in my school are definitely not well informed about the happenings of Japan, but they still know about it – and think that it’s a highly disagreeable marriage. They don’t present their arguments in an intelligent manner, but the point that they antagonize the marriage is there. A friend in Hong Kong also overheard talk of it in public, and there are all those Youtube responses I was basically writing against. The internet is an engine enough; the ripples may not be large, and it may just be pointing and laughing. But pointing and laughing is derision already, and derision means people don’t just disagree – they think it’s preposterous. It’s true this is the reaction now, but in my humble opinion it’s also true that it’s this derision that will become greatly manifested if a more extreme case arises.
@ramono
I agree completely. I’m not exactly writing towards an answer in most cases – I simply want to pose the question, and tell people what’s wrong. From there, I hope they can arrive at and share their own conclusions.
Yes, actual human interaction is the best – but why? I think it’s because an actual human is the only thing capable of providing everything we want from a relationship: unconditional love, emotional and physical support, a family, fulfillment, company. Ultimately though, do we really care about whether our partner is actually HUMAN? Of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species? What if a machine made to look exactly as a human being could provide one with all those things one seeks from a relationship? We don’t actually need our partners to have human depth. Look at the AI of Love Plus – there actually is a possibility that it displays more daily affection than one’s spouse. Does that mean it has the depth of a human being? Definitely not. But we’re not seeking the awesome depth of a human being in our partners, we seek affection.
That’s not to say Love Plus’ AI is adequate to maintain a relationship, as it lacks all the other things, but if one day a robot with a human analog coating (I’ll refrain from adding ‘orifices’ so I don’t instill too much comedy) and a processing unit so complex it is maybe a thousand, two thousand times more complicated than Love Plus’ AI, so complex that it is capable of learning and analyzing, what more benefits can a human provide? Sure, it won’t be coming up with a revelational quantum physics theory anytime soon, but it will display seemingly all the qualities of a human spouse, and even more affection. The only argument humans will have for themselves then is the ability to conceive offspring, but even then… But perhaps it would be wiser not to move there.
And remember, emotions are just electric impulses that travel throughout our brains. Whose to say the robot isn’t feeling emotion if electrical signals were programmed to flow in exactly the same way?
@Yi
I had no idea as well; I’m really outdated as a galgamer, still cooped up in the days of AIR or Kana ~Imouto~. I was expecting a character like one from those games as well, one that’s essentially a sprite on screen that ‘reacts’ based on a bunch of hard-set algorithms.
It brings up another problem for me then, though; does that mean Anegasaki Nene isn’t a sprite that reacts based on algorithms? Will galgames one day need to change their name to ‘girl simulation (galsimu?)’? Honestly, most of this is probably too deep for me.
Do you own a DS? To be honest, I’m avoiding getting Love Plus, I’ve a feeling I’ll get completely immersed in Rinko and my lifestyle might even degenerate (as if it’s not degenerated enough already). Or I’ll try to text her in class and get my DS confiscated, where I’ll then throw a hissy fit about how love shouldn’t be torn apart by petty policies and make my family proud.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:33 am
Wow. That’s pretty amazing. Props to the creator for putting so much effort on a “game” though it is certainly more than just a game to them.
Anyways. That brings up a thought in my mind. Since you said that the rules and laws only apply on HIS copy of the game, wouldn’t that mean everything that she does/says is already determined from the beginning? Thus meaning that she has a limit to how much she can say to him / do with him. Would he eventually get bored of her because of the same conversations / actions over and over again with none or little differences?
I sure would. If he doesn’t then that’s really something you don’t see or hear of everyday.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:18 am
“apparently there are over 5,000 scripts and 25,000 voice expressions. Just for the sake of comparison, seeing as how the average number of words a college graduate knows hovers around 20,000-38,000, this is a fairly incredible amount of expressions. One can only wonder how long the seiyuu spent in the recording studio.”
Earlier yesterday I was talking to my dad about the post I made about how Japan “hates” us (USA) and the various reasons Americans can’t go into certain Japanese establishments. More than half the time, the US dummies can’t even pay for what they came to get and leads me to my next point: Japan is a country well aware of services, charm, and quality. These are only few, but important factors we’ve all grown to love.
Many people over here just don’t get it and never will. Now I’m not saying I don’t think it’s a little bit off to marry a videogame….on the DS at that, but….-_-” I feel I’m just rambling now. I guess I’ll just say that the DS is a great system and the game was put together with the utmost quality, but the most “realistic” simulation is an actual real female.
Men are STILL trying to figure out the mysteries of a women and the difference “paths” we must take to woo them. I understand how the game is just a simulation and trust me, I play them all the time…and have so many, I haven’t finished half the ones I have. My argument is if this guy were a REAL “gamer,” he’d actually try to get in with a real girl. Try that kind of excitement. And I don’t mean it in a mean, sarcastic way. I mean it in a, this guy was taking the easy way out way. That’s not love…that’s playing it safe. Love isn’t always about playing it safe…or that’s what people tell me. Hell, what do I know lol.
December 16th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
though look at it this way, in every marriage and relationship (between a male and female) there are bound to be obstacles that actually creates the special relationship that no one else possesses.
but then with Sal & Nene, their marriage is as people would call “a perfect marriage and relationship”. However, we also know that no relationship is perfect, that is why arguments and struggles exist in order to close the gap and become even closer with their partners.
Even if an AI can express any type of emotions, yet there isn’t really any special relationship between Nene and Sal. Its even possible to have another person half way on the other side of the planet to be able to have the exact same relationship with a similar AI. (hopefully you get what i’m trying to get at)
And yaeh i agree with FaS, i think hands on has a totally different feelnig than just staring at a screen and just controlling a screen. If there was ever a day that Sal has been able to see all of the 5000 scripts and 25k voice expressions of Nene, then the feeling of repetitiveness will be felt. As humans,i’m sure we can express more than number of expressions to someone.
December 17th, 2009 at 2:36 am
@all
True, note one thing though; I do agree that Love Plus is a limited simulation of a relationship at best. 5,000 scripts and 25,000 voice expressions is a paltry amount compared to the true range a human being can provide. It definitely can’t simulate a complete real relationship; there’s not even any true physical contact. But what I’m suggesting here is, with the rapid advance of technology, will there one day (soon) exist a much more complete non-human partner? Check out the link in my reply to 2DT if you haven’t already, really thought provoking stuff.
@nish
Yes, he will most likely get bored with such a comparatively small scope of possibilities, but I don’t see what the laws of it have to do with it. By laws I meant the legality of it, what laws would take affect if someone else were to play the game and interact with Nene.
But yes, you can look at it that way, that everything is predetermined in the first place – but personally I find that quite a saddening matter to imagine.
@FaS
Yes, the Japanese penchant for quality is oftentimes astounding – they just seem to have a working vigor most other peoples don’t have.
And yes, a real female definitely possesses many more dimensions than a DS simulation does. Love Plus isn’t adequate, but what I’m getting to here is that it’s a monumental first step – these simulations have finally achieved a level of realism capable of inducing a person to feel extreme feelings for it.
However, I don’t agree that this is Sal’s way of ‘taking the easy way out’. If anything, without commenting on the morality of it all, Sal is displaying the courage to tackle the matter head on by holding an internet broadcasted marriage, and a very controversial one at that. If he were simply saying he loved a simulation, then one may be able to accuse him of not mustering the courage to deal with a real woman. But here, he’s confessing to a very debatable relationship in a ceremony of lifelong commitment that is normally very crucial and important to the life of a normal man – personally, facing a woman and trying to woo her is much easier than confessing to that.
Playing it safe would be hiding at home, not holding a marriage ceremony about it.
@mat
True, I failed to consider that arguments and struggles contribute to strengthening a relationship; good point. I’ll have to reconsider my points to ramono up there.
I know what you mean; because the Anegasaki Nene in one game cartridge is exactly the same as the Nene in another, right? In that case, the relationship still won’t be EXACTLY the same, because then Sal and the other man would be the variables, with the Nenes being the constant. But yes, they will be very similar.
True. As with my @everyone bit, I’m not saying Love Plus is adequate. He will most probably see every single script and expression one day, and then it would be hard pressed for anyone not to get bored. A human can definitely express many, many more things than the AI of LP can. But as par my previous replies, I’m sort of throwing out the idea that, what if one day (and Discovery says that day is nigh, as par the above link) we create an AI (of course, in a human analog) much more complex? The question is sort of, how similar can robots and AI be to human beings before the line becomes blurred?
It always reminds me of the manga Black Cat, where the character Eve is essentially man-made. She possesses a great amount of nanobots in her body (bloodstream, was it?) that actually repair her wounds if she gets hurt. I think they were even able to allow her to grow overtime, as she had nanobot creating organs. I thought to myself at the time, ‘but then, she’s just like a human being’…
December 18th, 2009 at 6:37 am
I don’t own a DS, but I’m considering it just for this game. Haha.
“Or I’ll try to text her in class and get my DS confiscated, where I’ll then throw a hissy fit about how love shouldn’t be torn apart by petty policies and make my family proud.”
Loll
December 19th, 2009 at 5:34 am
Seeing how a game’s already got the AI worked out, now all that’s missing is an actual body.
http://www.cartoonleap.com/2009/12/17/cnn-reports-on-love-plus-virtual-marriage/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CartoonLeap+%28Cartoon+Leap%29
CNN reports… :)
Credits to CartoonLeap.
Although I now wonder, if the game has heartbreaking scenes. Like lets say if Nene ends up hating the player.
If yes, imagine this. If it can stir up enough emotions to lead to a marriage. Can it stir up enough of a heartache to lead to suicide?
o.0!
December 20th, 2009 at 5:22 am
blur you clever, clever boy, how’d you come up with that? In my opinion one is the direct opposite side of the spectrum proportionate to the other – so if love exists, such a tragedy is also possible. However, I have a sick feeling that the news of somebody committing suicide due to such a heartbreak might actually receive less exposure than someone marrying a game character, as suicides are so commonplace and their reasons so often incomprehensible that we begin to overlook them…
Anyhow, the article basically adds a key point to what I think – that Sal actually has a good understanding of the situation in which he himself stands, and that he’s not afraid to be open with this fact. Much thanks for sharing.
January 31st, 2010 at 3:07 am
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